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“DeepSeek: A Deep Dive”

House Committee on Science, Space, and Technology Subcommittee on Research and Technology

April 8, 2025 (recording linked here)

HEARING INFORMATION

Witnesses and Written Testimony:

• Mr. Adam Thierer: Resident Senior Fellow, Technology and Innovation, R Street Institute

• Mr. Gregory Allen: Director, Wadhwani Center for AI & Advanced Technologies, Center for Strategic and International Studies

• Dr. Julia Stoyanovich: Institute Associate Professor of Computer Science & Engineering, Tandon School of Engineering; Associate Professor of Data Science, Center for Data Science; Director, Center for Responsible AI, New York University

• Mr. Tim Fist: Director of Emerging Technology Policy, Institute for Progress

HEARING HIGHLIGHTS

IN THEIR WORDS

SUMMARY OF OPENING STATEMENTS FROM THE COMMITTEE AND SUBCOMMITTEE

• Subcommittee Chair Obernolte highlighted AI’s transformative impact on U.S. economy and national security. He expressed concerns over China’s AI progress, specifically Deep Seek as the first non-American reasoning AI model, posing risks to data security and leadership. He emphasized maintaining U.S. innovation, citing Google's Gemma model, and advocated collaboration between government and industry.

• Subcommittee Ranking Member Stevens raised concerns about administration policies weakening U.S. scientific leadership through funding cuts and loss of scientific personnel. She called for greater investment in science and responsible AI development, contrasting America's open values with China's oppressive methods.

• Full Committee Chair Babin called Deep Seek’s AI models a serious threat to U.S. technology leadership and national security. He warned against China's aggressive technology strategy and advocated for innovation through free-market policies and reduced government barriers, emphasizing vigilance against technological threats.

• Full Committee Ranking Member Lofgren warned about threats from Deep Seek to American AI leadership, stressing the need for defensive and offensive strategies. She criticized the Trump administration's harmful actions towards scientific institutions and called for increased funding and supportive immigration policies to restore U.S. scientific competitiveness.

SUMMARY OF WITNESS STATEMENT

• Mr. Thierer expressed alarm at China's rapid AI advancements and described Deep Seek as a Sputnik-like event. He advocated a freedom-based approach to AI, supporting open-source innovation, attracting global talent, and reducing regulatory barriers, rejecting China's restrictive approach.

• Mr. Allen credited Deep Seek’s AI success to strong computational infrastructure and highlighted the importance of U.S. export controls in slowing China's progress. He criticized delayed policy implementation by the Biden administration and urged greater resources for export control enforcement.

• Dr. Stoyanovich emphasized transparency, data governance, and responsible AI as crucial in responding to Deep Seek’s competitive challenge. She recommended enhanced transparency, strong federal funding for foundational research, and comprehensive data protection policies.

• Mr. Fist stressed securing the AI technology stack and highlighted vulnerabilities from autonomous AI agents. He proposed establishing a federal team at NIST for proactive threat detection and advocated accelerated open-source AI development supported by robust infrastructure expansion.

SUMMARY OF KEY Q&A

• Chair Obernolte discussed the importance of codifying the National AI Research Resource (NAIR), emphasizing its critical role in supporting research, small businesses, and workforce training. He asked about the risks posed by nearly 1,000 pending state-level AI regulatory bills. Mr. Thierer explained the bills could create barriers for small businesses and suggested a federal preemption framework or a regulatory moratorium to avoid stifling innovation.

• Ranking Member Stevens discussed the importance of NIST’s role in global AI safety standards and its underfunding. She also asked about the funding sources of the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) and the Wadhwani AI Center. Mr. Allen clarified funding sources and discussed shortcomings in U.S. export controls against China, recommending a more strategically timed and effective approach.

• Chairman Babin questioned about the cost of Deep Seek’s AI model development and the source of chips used. Mr. Allen clarified Deep Seek's use of U.S. chips, obtained during periods of insufficient U.S. export controls.

  Full Committee Chair Babin also asked about censorship practices in Deep Seek, and Mr. Fist confirmed the model suppressed politically sensitive information.

• Ranking Member Lofgren discussed export control strategies, highlighting the necessity of multilateral cooperation to effectively restrict China's access to critical technology. She also discussed technical strategies to safeguard data privacy and prevent adversarial exploitation, emphasizing the need for AI interpretability research.

• Rep. Issa addressed maintaining U.S. leadership through labor, knowledge, and investment, stressing the importance of retaining foreign-educated talent. He also emphasized the threat of espionage and data security from AI models, concluding that strict regulation domestically might not effectively prevent data exploitation by China.

• Rep. Subramanyam asked about China's current standing in the AI "Cold War." All witnesses generally agreed China was closing the gap rapidly, with Mr. Fist emphasizing the critical role of hardware and export controls in maintaining a U.S. advantage.

• Rep. Rouzer asked about AI’s potential role in improving education and healthcare. Mr. Thierer and Mr. Allen highlighted the necessity of careful policy frameworks and regulatory balance to ensure AI's positive outcomes in these sectors.

• Rep. Rivas discussed how recent administration funding cuts negatively impact AI research, workforce development, and national competitiveness. Dr. Stoyanovich emphasized investing in educational institutions and research infrastructure.

• Rep. Baird asked about balancing AI innovation with national security and openness. Both Mr. Thierer and Dr. Stoyanovich recommended an approach focusing on open models, transparency, and regulatory frameworks that do not hinder innovation.

• Rep. McBride addressed concerns about diversity, education, and immigration policies negatively impacting AI innovation and competitiveness. Dr. Stoyanovich highlighted severe consequences from recent funding cuts and restrictive immigration policies.

• Rep. Biggs asked about Deep Seek’s data privacy threats and how China’s rapid AI development challenges U.S. competitiveness. Mr. Allen stressed the critical role of U.S. government investment in foundational AI research.

• Rep. McClain Delaney discussed NIST’s essential role in AI standards and evaluation, emphasizing the negative impacts of staffing cuts on U.S. competitiveness.

• Rep. Kennedy discussed the importance of fostering efficient AI innovation and state-level regulatory frameworks. He asked about privacy and censorship risks in Deep Seek’s app versus model. Mr. Allen clarified privacy concerns and censorship risks, highlighting greater vulnerabilities in the app.

• Rep. Amo discussed the importance of investing in STEM education and attracting international talent to maintain U.S. AI competitiveness, particularly in healthcare.

• Rep. Foushee questioned about the importance of federal funding for university research to sustain American competitiveness in AI. Both Dr. Stoyanovich and Mr. Fist emphasized federal support as critical to maintaining innovation and independence from industry-driven agendas.

• Rep. McCormick asked about the implications of China copying U.S. AI innovations and the importance of private industry versus federal government in advancing AI and energy technologies. Dr. Stoyanovich responded by emphasizing the risks of over-reliance on private entities for strategic innovation and governance.

“A Continued Pattern of Government Surveillance of U.S. Citizens”

House Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime and Federal Government Surveillance

April 8, 2025 (recording linked here)

HEARING INFORMATION

Witnesses and Written Testimony:

• Mr. Gene Schaerr: General Counsel, Project for Privacy & Surveillance Accountability

• Mr. Phil Kiko: Principal, Williams & Jensen; Former Chief of Staff and General Counsel to House Judiciary Committee; Former Chief Administrative Office of the House

• Mr. James Czerniawski: Senior Policy Analyst, Technology & Innovation, Americans for Prosperity

• Mr. Kia Hamadanchy: Senior Policy Counsel, National Political Advocacy Division, American Civil Liberties Union

HEARING HIGHLIGHTS

IN THEIR WORDS

SUMMARY OF OPENING STATEMENTS FROM THE COMMITTEE AND SUBCOMMITTEE

• Subcommittee Chairman Biggs emphasized the importance of the Fourth Amendment in protecting Americans from unreasonable government searches. He highlighted the FBI's extensive use of Section 702 of FISA, conducting millions of queries on US person communications. Biggs discussed how the government can obtain personal data through data brokers without warrants, bypassing constitutional protections. He raised concerns about facial recognition technology and its potential to infringe on First and Fourth Amendment rights. Biggs introduced an amendment requiring warrants for US person queries and called for comprehensive reforms to protect citizens' privacy rights.

• Full Committee Ranking Member Raskin stressed the enduring importance of the Fourth Amendment in the face of technological advancements. He discussed how new technologies like artificial intelligence and data brokers have made government surveillance increasingly invasive. Raskin highlighted the potential for abuse in government surveillance powers, citing the example of President Trump firing members of the Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board. He expressed concern about the dismantling of oversight mechanisms and the potential for government overreach. Raskin emphasized the need to balance national security with constitutional protections.

• Full Committee Chairman Jordan focused on the problems with Section 702 of FISA, which allows surveillance of foreigners but results in massive data collection of Americans' communications. He pointed out that the FBI conducted 3 million searches of American data in 2021, often without following their own rules. Jordan stressed the importance of implementing a warrant requirement for searching Americans' communications. He highlighted that they were close to passing a warrant requirement in the previous Congress, losing by a tie vote. Jordan committed to working towards implementing a warrant requirement with appropriate exceptions for emergency situations.

SUMMARY OF WITNESS STATEMENT

• Mr. James Czerniawski emphasized the principle of individual liberty and privacy enshrined in the Constitution. He acknowledged the importance of national security while warning against unchecked government surveillance powers. He discussed the decline in public trust in federal agencies due to repeated privacy violations. Czerniawski proposed three key reforms: closing the back door search loophole, closing the data broker loophole, and strengthening third-party oversight at the FISA court. He urged the committee to take action to protect Americans' constitutional rights.

• Mr. Kia Hamadanchy expressed optimism about potential reforms to government surveillance programs. He discussed the problems with Section 702, which allows warrantless searches of Americans' communications collected from foreign surveillance. He highlighted additional surveillance concerns, including law enforcement purchasing data they would otherwise need a warrant to obtain. Hamadanchy raised issues with reverse warrants and cross-agency data linkages. He urged the committee to comprehensively review AI surveillance technologies and protect Americans' privacy rights.

• Mr. Phil Kiko discussed the complex digital world that captures personal data and the challenges of modern surveillance. He emphasized the need for continued bipartisan oversight to protect Fourth Amendment guarantees. Kiko stressed the importance of timely disclosure of information and real-time oversight by Congress. He suggested using AI to modernize FBI compliance monitoring and recommended maintaining sunset provisions in FISA reauthorizations. Kiko advocated for increased security clearances for congressional oversight.

• Mr. Gene Schaerr highlighted the expansion of privacy-destroying technologies over the past 25 years. He discussed the ongoing issues with FISA Section 702 and the limitations of recent reforms. Schaerr pointed out continued improper searches, including surveillance of congressional staff and federal employees. He emphasized the need for explicit warrant requirements for searching both 702 data and purchased data. Schaerr urged the committee to continue pushing for reforms to protect Americans' civil rights.

SUMMARY OF KEY Q&A

• Rep. Tiffany asked about how the RISA bill expanded the definition of electronic communication service providers in a problematic way. He inquired whether Congress should move forward with reforms despite potential changes in FBI leadership. Mr. Czerniawski recommended that Congress should act to fix the overly broad definition regardless of current leadership.

  Rep. Tiffany then asked about the Biggs amendment's exceptions, to which Mr. Schaerr explained that the amendment carefully included provisions for exigent circumstances and consent. He emphasized that the amendment had express exceptions and even exempted metadata searches.

• Ranking Member Raskin discussed the Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board, exploring the board's purpose and the impact of firing its Democratic members. Mr. Hamadanchy explained that the board was designed to report on privacy implications of surveillance programs and that firing independent members chills their ability to provide oversight. Ranking Member Raskin probed the witnesses about the importance of reporting requirements for US person searches, with Mr. Schaerr highlighting the need for transparency and accountability.

• Chairman Jordan asked about the main argument against the warrant requirement, which Mr. Hamadanchy explained was the claim that the data was lawfully collected. Chairman Jordan pressed on the fundamental issue of warrantless searches of Americans' communications.

• Rep. Cline asked about the government's ability to articulate the number of Americans surveilled, to which Mr. Kiko suggested the government was not being truthful. Rep. Cline inquired about the national security risk of requiring warrants, and Mr. Kiko argued there was no such risk.

  Rep. Cline also asked about justifying government queries of Americans' communications without warrants, to which Mr. Czerniawski emphasized how such actions undermine public trust.

• Rep. Goldman raised concerns about broader privacy issues, particularly the access to personal information by non-government entities like Elon Musk. He asked about the firing of NSA Director General Timothy Hawk, with Mr. Hamadanchy suggesting the committee should investigate potential policy changes and the qualifications of any replacement.

• Rep. Kiley discussed the potential uses of AI in surveillance, asking about balancing technological advances with civil liberties. Mr. Hamadanchy and Mr. Czerniawski expressed concerns about AI's potential for automated surveillance and the need for careful oversight.

• Rep. Lee asked about potential further reforms to the FISA court, particularly regarding amicus participation. Mr. Schaerr suggested expanding amicus appointments for sensitive cases and requiring judges to explain why an amicus might not be appointed.

• Rep. Knott drew parallels to his experience as a federal prosecutor, asking about data collection, storage, and access under Section 702. Mr. Czerniawski highlighted the ease of accessing collected data and the need for better controls.

  Rep. Knott also asked about penalties for law enforcement abusing surveillance powers, to which Mr. Schaerr noted the current lack of personal liability.

• Chairman Biggs discussed the Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board, confirming it was not the first time the board lacked a quorum. He asked about recent abuse reports, with Mr. Schaerr citing an ODNI report detailing improper searches of congressional staffers and federal employees. Chairman Biggs also asked about the warrant requirement's exceptions, to which Mr. Czerniawski praised the robustness of the previous amendment's provisions.

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